Frontpage FeedObrigado gozaimasu
The popular idea that "arigato" derives from "obrigado" has been repeatedly debunked. However, every debunking I have seen is unsatisfactory. It is pointed out that the Japanese word from which "arigato" is derived long predates the Portuguese arrival in Japan. And that's it. But that's clearly unsatisfactory. A satisfactory debunking would claim, and demonstrate, that the word itself, in that specific use, predated the Portuguese arrival. Without this, it remains possible that the following happened:
1) "arigatai" meaning "difficult" long predated the Portuguese arrival, but the use of "arigato" to mean "thank you" did not predate the Portuguese arrival.
2) Observation of the Portuguese saying "obrigado" to mean "thank you" caused the Japanese to say "arigato" to mean "thank you".
I do not have specific examples, but I do believe I have seen genuine examples of this sort of thing happening with other words in other languages - that is, that one language has indeed affected another language by altering the second language's use of its own native words.
Nothing I have read anywhere specifically excludes this possibility. Talk is always about the word "arigatai" meaning "difficult" predating the Portuguese. In my experience (and I have looked into this multiple times over the years) no one ever offers any samples of Japanese writing "arigato" to mean "thank you", or even claims that they did so before the Portuguese arrived.
So, no one seems to have ever debunked this possibility. If this is what happening, then it is simply overstating the case to claim that:
"Superficial appearances notwithstanding, there is absolutely no linguistic relationship to the Portuguese word obrigado of the same meaning."
If the Portuguese use of "obrigado" shaped the Japanese use of "arigato" then that is a linguistic relationship.
I would be happy if either:
1) Someone finally specifically showed that "arigato" was used to mean "thank you" before the Portuguese arrived, or
2) People stopped overstating the case against the relationship between "obrigado" and "arigato".
Constant, to be a little
Constant, to be a little more precise, "arigatou gozaimasu" is the formal, honorific way of saying "arigatai", which does not mean "difficult", but literally, "difficult to obtain".
While of course this is not proof that the usage did NOT arise as a result of "obrigado", it is easy to imagine this phrase being adopted as a customary expression of appreciation for a favor or a gift received.
Yes, it's plausible
I agree that it's plausible that this was so adopted without any influence from "obrigado". What puzzles me is the absence, in all the debunking of the Portuguese theory that I've seen, of direct evidence of the sort I described, of "arigatou" in use as such an expression before the arrival of the Portuguese. My impression has been that the Japanese have long been a highly literate culture, and this is what makes the absence of direct quotes puzzling to me.
As a point of comparison, "thank you" shows up all over Shakespeare as an expression of appreciation. For example, "Thank you, good Pompey". And it can also be found in Chaucer, for example, "Thanke yow, lord, and lady myn Venus". Chaucer predates the Portuguese arrival in Japan, Shakespeare comes slightly after.
How do we know you're the real Constant?
How do we know you're not an impostor?
Just a quick couple of
Just a quick couple of comments about your assumption of the Japanese having "long been a highly literate culture." At a quick glance it may seem so, but it is actually not the case.
Due to the Japanese co-opting Chinese characters at first, then having them gradually fall from use (from over 5,000 to 1,945 today), most Japanese are never fully literate in their own language - unable to read even WWII-era Japanese today. Prior to the Meiji Restoration (move from Samurai/feudal system to modern governance) which dragged Japan into the modern era in almost 1900(!), education was essentially only for the wealthy and priveleged.
A post-war literacy survey revealed that while the *illiteracy* rate was low, the rate of actual literacy (as determined by Western standards) was only 6.2%.
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003962.html
Further, due to the proliferation of PC & cell phone input-predictive systems today, many Japanese as old as age 40 are forgetting how to write everyday kanji.
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=ajcm4hmcdchf_23cjf5xx
Japan has long been a country of isolation and provincialism, but not really a culture of high literacy, until the 20th century.
The context of my remarks
The context of my remarks concerned whether Japanese literature could have been expected to capture "arigato" in use to mean "thank you". As a point of comparison I picked a famous English writer from before the Portuguese visited Japan, Chaucer, and I found several instances in his work of "thank you" used to mean "thank you" (i.e. used as we use it today). That's from just one author (I didn't cherry-pick; Chaucer was the obvious first choice on the basis of name recognition, Shakespeare being a little bit too late). So if the Japanese had at least one author more or less comparable to Chaucer, we should be able to repeat the experiment - i.e., find a few instances in the author's works of the word "arigato" being used to mean "thank you".
This experiment does not require a 90% literacy rate or even necessarily a 5% literacy rate. Strictly speaking, it requires only one author more or less comparable to Chaucer. I think Murasaki Shikibu might qualify.
Kanji troubles
“[M]ost Japanese are never fully literate in their own language….”
It gets worse.
Lost in translation
A somewhat analogous situation, the name of the J. F. Oberlin University (in the Tokyo suburbs) is written and pronounced in Japanese as "Obirin." Apparently this coincides with a familiar word for cherry orchard.
An aside: My dad took a sabbatical to study Japanese social norms. At one meeting a Buddhist monk greeted him in fluent English and began exchanging pleasantries. “How do you find Japan?”
“Oh, it’s so very different here. The weather, the people, the food, the culture – everything!”
“So different? I’d expect we have a similar crime rate to yours.”
“Well, you’d be surprised. That’s one of the matters I’m researching for my Criminology and Deviance class next semester. Once you control for levels of education, employment and racial variables …” and he launched into one of his lengthy lectures so familiar to members of my immediate family. It was several minute into this dissertation that the puzzled monk, with the aid of translators, was able to clarify that he was asking about the climate.
Sure enough, some things aren’t so very different between our cultures. When making small talk, we both talk about the weather.
I differ with most people
I differ with most people here; I found this blog post I couldn’t stop until I finished, even though it wasn’t just what I had been searching for, was still a nice read though. I will instantly get your blog feed to stay in touch of any updates.
Thank you fore elaborate this
Thank you fore elaborate this with examples.......In this side how word meaning differ from one another due to language ..it occurs and due to this a new language born with change its meaning.practically meaning of the language change and depend upon the citizen of the country,whats their main language.........so thanks for your suggestion. Notice to Quit
Really?
So you mean that the word obrigado is portugese and somehow the japanese people were inspired from this word to make arigato their thank you word? I'm not really sure what you want to say but I really like the japanese language and learning something like this is pretty informative. I never knew that the portugese somehow inspired some of the japanese words like arigato.
other languages
Thanks for the explanations. It is in the nuances of words that many of us get lost. It is one thing to learn what the text book says and another to know what it is meant when spoken. This really sheds light on the meaning. This is important for those who are marketing or doing direct mail in other languages.
Intéressant et incroyable de
Intéressant et incroyable de voir comment votre post est! Il est utile et utile pour moi que je l'aime beaucoup, et je suis impatient d'en savoir plus. beach vacation resort
Re:
Truly impressive and nice information,it is good material to read this post increases my knowledge.That is really fantastic and exciting to read your dwI hope you never stop! This is one of the best blogs Ive ever read. Youve got some mad skill here, man. I just hope that you dont lose your style because youre definitely one of the coolest bloggers out there. Please keep it up because the internet needs someone like you spreading the word.....Thank you...
Adira Asuransi Kendaraan Terbaik Indonesia
Century 21 Broker Properti Jual Beli Sewa Rumah Indonesia
I daresay that the word
I daresay that the word itself existed, if I have learned correctly. Which kind of research have you done on pre-16th century Japanese texts?
Anyway, if you see it the other way around, there is proof that arigatougozaimasu existed as a word before the Portuguese arrived in Japan, meaning "this is difficult to obtain (to me)"; but there is no proof that arigatou derived or was somehow suggested by obrigado, exept for rumours.
So if you say that Japanese has been influenced by Portuguese on that, you should show some kind of evidence in my opinion.
As for what concerns my personal opinion, Japanese has indeed borrowed a lot of words from the western languages (and from the asian ones as well), but they were mostly (if not only) words that described concepts that were unknown in Japan. Which, I think, is hardly applicable to thankfullness, in such a levelled and etiquette-esque society like the Japanese one.
I wanted to inform you for
I wanted to inform you for this great help!! I definitely enjoyed every little bit of it. I have you bookmarked to check out new stuff on this post.
Link **
brown bags and chaps **
white dress and trousers **
vintage motorcycle clothing for men **
nice post
By which a representative is affiliated with erectile dysfunction, they often ambience down in the mouth, exacerbated and here alone basically because gents are not able through which. More and more bozos can hold backup in spirit the store's male erecticle dysfunction as well as a low level libido are quite become. Since taking the needed footsteps, a would be able to get back her libido in a unshakable stage enabling exactly the mortal are capable of have and now sex. phen375 forum
スーパーコピー時計
I read some of your post and I learned a lot of knowledge from it. Thanks for posting such interesting articles
I am really thankful for the
I am really thankful for the stuff you've provided here. It is nice to know that there are still some useful websites left on the internet because the majority of them are totally useless!
Regards, Manny from pass a drug test
Well this is very interesting
Well this is very interesting indeed.Would love to read a little more of this. admire the valuable information you offer in your articles.
cash advance
Retro Jordans
Although the title cheap renowned throughout the world, but for those who do not know what it stands for,Air Jordan 5 Retro it is completely amazing cheap Jordan shoes are the original production and the scope of the study by a war from around the world basketball fame, named Michael Jordan. May be the most popular Air Jordan shoes all the time.
Jordan's Bulls first full season back after his first pit stop after the first retirement.Jordan Retro 5 For Cheap His win number four of them, who can forget to surround the entire patent leather shoes. These Air Jordan shoes original created for him, but since 1985, these ordinary people are available.
Cheap Jordan shoes designed by Tinker Hart Field. This is the first Jordan features the visible air unit in the heel, the new Jumpman logo, an elephant print trim, tumble leather luxury look. Basketball players a full range of the world, for this reason, Nostalgic Jordan Retro 7Jordan shoes is the best choice, their company, Nike is now one of the largest range of leading cadres quality cheap Jordan shoes.
These features in the film, he got the game, Jordan and the Bulls last season to play in his most cheap Jordan shoes. Jordan Brand and director Spike Lee (Spike Lee) to launch limited edition in a special color Air Jordan III similar to "do the right thing movie poster.Jordan Retro 7 Form China Due to the spread of the Internet and the large number of people trying to get them a pair of Jordan shoes, Jordan shoes online purchase options are also available.....123
Thanks for sharing, I Think
Thanks for sharing, I Think that is what I have been looking for.
köpa viagra
nice
dui lawyer cost
What an amazing place - it really looks stunning. I like the authentic cowboy hats too!
Post new comment